My recent eval: Savia Art/Starkey Destiny

[lucky1man]

My Audi just completed sound field test with Savia Art/Starkey Destiny.

My audiogram is left ear/NR Rt ear 65db at 250;55db 500;70db 1000; 60db 1500;70db 2000; 80db 3000 and 4000.

My current aid is Starkey Sequel mmvp with front and rear mikes (manual control) 4 generations old

My most comfort level was 50 db. Audi feels I need up to 65db gain new aid.

The results in 25 db sound field (front and rear speakers) were 65 % discrim with Strakey 1600; 70% with Savia Art ; But 80% with my 4 generation old Starkey. ( I turned off the rear mike) Sound field was clearly louder with Savia and Starkey.

My audi bit puzzled and is looking and at older generation Starkeys (but newer than mine??

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[xbulder]

I suggest check the amount of insertion gain using Real ear measurment.
This really provides a superior insight as to how good of a fit you are getting.

There are so many things happening inside an aid that is it best to use REM for verification of fittings. The different compresion ratios, the attack and relase times, noise reduction, noice cancellation, etc etc....

A while ago, I read that some of Phonak instruments had something call
RCD direct feature (or something like that). The fitting algorithms was quite close to the targets. Admin can maybe explain more.

REM with both instrumenst should provide the proper explanation...
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[lucky1man]

Thanks for reply.XBulder
Went for 2nd eval , this time with Starkey Dest 1200 (it has manual controls, which I need) my Audi feels although not do quite as well in the soundbooth with noise as my 4 generation old Starkey MMVP it hs learning fuction and with time ..... So we go outside to test it , his voice pretty clear (sim to my present aid) but noticed I could hear leaves rattling in the trees (light wind) I have not heard that clearly (high freq) since was a kid. Got little encouraged.
Since I use neckloop a lot for theater he wanted to try it with his loop system for TV in his office.(my old aid on the T setting voices were crystal clear, wow!) With the Starkey on the T or the M/T was difficult to understand. Ditto for the Savia T and M/t no difference hard to understand with the loop. Rats.

Anyone experience this? Any feedback will be appreciated. XBulder ;
Admin??

Recommend try any other aids?? (need about 60 db gain max)

Thank much.,

[xbulder]

Thanks for reply.XBulder
Went for 2nd eval , this time with Starkey Dest 1200 (it has manual controls, which I need) my Audi feels although not do quite as well in the soundbooth with noise as my 4 generation old Starkey MMVP it hs learning fuction and with time ..... So we go outside to test it , his voice pretty clear (sim to my present aid) but noticed I could hear leaves rattling in the trees (light wind) I have not heard that clearly (high freq) since was a kid. Got little encouraged.
Since I use neckloop a lot for theater he wanted to try it with his loop system for TV in his office.(my old aid on the T setting voices were crystal clear, wow!) With the Starkey on the T or the M/T was difficult to understand. Ditto for the Savia T and M/t no difference hard to understand with the loop. Rats.

Anyone experience this? Any feedback will be appreciated. XBulder ;
Admin??

Recommend try any other aids?? (need about 60 db gain max)

Thank much.,

I would say, Phonak is a great instrument. As a company Phonak products are better than Starkeys (i would tend to think Admin will concurr). Mere facts Phonak is leader in pediatric fittings and in FM by far (this is a fact).
Phonak had a good number of new products.. Se my posting on their new upcoming products from the UHA.. I like to see the tech specs...

(they are trying to catch up with Oticon and siemens wireless technology)..

I have also fitted a lot of Oticon, which I also like a lot. I like to fit the EPOQ w, I fit tons of them. you could try this..

There are other good instruments around, Siemens centra I like a lot, and the GN Azure is an interesting product. Azure is a novel concept and it has tons of paper and GN claim that it had been extensively tested...

Regarding, verification- Sound field verifications are not valid verification of fitting. Use Real ear measurement as a Valid mean to verify your fitting.
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[Admin]

I would have to agree that the Savia ART is a much more robust hearing aid than the latter.

It is odd, though, that the neckloop and loopset in the office did not work well for you. It may be that the gain setting in the aids may need to be raised.

I used to use the Starkey MMVP many years ago, and they were a solid hearing aid and good telecoil. Yet, why you did better with the old ones is a mystery to me. As for sound field testing...it is better if the HINT test is used and the voice comes from the front and the noise from 90 deg to the left or right for accurate testing in sound field. Or a single front speaker can be used for Quick SIN test. Otherwise, REM or speech mapping is the best.

It would be great if you could switch to the Oticon Epoq, but I believe there is not enough gain for your loss.

Given the information provided, I would also have recommended either the Savia ART CRT Receiver in the ear (BTE) or the MicroPower IX.

[lucky1man]

Ok now three weeks into trail period with Savia ARt. Lets review the speech programs. (not discuss telecoil or music program)
Savia has Manual control ( speech in calm) Manual control (speech in noise)

and Auto control (speech in noise) I have opted for manual control of volume for all programs.

Speech in calm offers improvement in clarity over my previous Starkey assuming really calm environment.

The manual speech in noise and auto speech in noise must have the level of "sensitivy" or noise reduciton set by the audi.(Ea hs 3 sttings, I think)
The auto mode senses when to reduce noise level to the program set by audi or to not use. It is ok when it works the problem is it constantly changes from loud to noise reduce. It is not smart enuff to know when you want it to remain on or not. Drives me crazy (example: drving on freeway is in reduction mode is ok, for no reason changes back to loud and and must wait too long for it to change back to reduction. /WE have tried changing the transition sensitiviy (now using seemless) but makes no difference' : Result: this program of no use.

That leaves the manual control speech reduciton progam. Have tried the least sensitive mode )set by audi) and it really hard to notice any difference.
Now my audi just set to max noise reduction and does a good job of reducing noise , but also reduces speech so drastically that cant hear waitress or people talking clearly. So I crank it up and get more noise. I believe these programs have 3 settings (minute reduction, medium and max) Well , maybe one more setting to try (medium) in the noise reduciton program. Sigh

So far dissappointed as it does offer more clarity but noise reduction programs dont really hlp.

I thnk a really design error to have noise reduction program and user must go to to audi to change settings. User shud be able to change these settings

Appreciate any feedback (Adm or Xbuilder, anyone) Anyone know of an aid that allows user to control the noise reduction settings in these programs (and volume control).

Thanks

[Admin]

I don't think there are any user controllable hearing aids as far as noise reduction goes. One of the few bad things with these aids are that they can't read your mind as to when you want the aids to switch to the noise modes and when you don't want it to happen.

For just these functions, using the multimemory switch or remote and making all of the programs manually accessed is usually the way we get around this problem.

Even when the switching is "seamless", it is still quite apparent when the switches occur.

One way to get around some of the problems is to leave all programs (except Telecoil) to directional and use the same amount of noise reduction (such as leaving it on light) for all programs.

The other option is to switch to another aid, such as the Oticon Epoq or Sonic Innovations Velocity. The Velocity's noise reduction is good because it uses the minimum necessary for each situation, thus you don't get the unnatural noise reduction when both speech and noise are present as you do with the Savia Art. They try to keep the signal to noise ratio as positive as possible in all situations.

Also for programming, is your audi/dispenser using some form of REM measurements, such as speech mapping and/or using HINT or Quick SIN tests to see how well you hear in noise?

[xbulder]

I use the HINT
and you can input the gain function and the machine will predict the SN
it is a long test but well worth it.
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[lucky1man]

thank you both; will inform my Audi and report back later.

[lucky1man]

Thanks again Admin, XBuilder for your help.

Results of 6 wk eval: Savia Art a quailty instrument, unfortunatley has poor voice to noise ratio. Voice gets depressed when in noise reduciton modes and does not help me . My Old Stareky Sequel better in most noise situations.

Starkey 1200; really a flimsy instrument. Wheel for volume instead of elec lever control. No beeps aftger initial defautl beep to tell you where you are in vol. Button is hard to push and find to change channels.
However voice to noise is better then Savia, but sound is thin and tinny.

Have decided must have instrument with remote. Constantly changing volume and programs. Any suggestions on instruments that have remote with better voice to noise ratios than Savia. ( I need about 60 db max gain)

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

[xbulder]

out the top of my head - when i think remote control i think of phonak.
however, Siemens do have remote control on most of their mid to high end instruments - sentra perhaps

Oticon epoq also has "remote control" streamer it has good sound quality

Unitron yuu and bernafon brite also have remote controls...

this could be options
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[lucky1man]

Thanks XBuilder.

I should also ask , irrespective , of remote controls, which hearing aids do you think do the best job of noise reduciton and not interfering with speech as does Savia? (best signal to noise ratio?)

Appreciate all who help here.

[NumbEars]

I hope I don't say the wrong thing here and mislead people who don't have answers and are looking here for them. I get the feeling that "industry wide" digital hearing aid manufacturers tweek the high and slightly higher (than normal speech) frequencies to promote enunciation of speech. This is what I was told (right or wrong???).

If this is true, I have an issue with that. However my circumstance is not the same as many/most others.For thoes who it is, here goes. I have the middle speech frequencies going out on me with some low frequencies also. The high frequencies are fine. Now I have to wear hearing aids that have a spiked high end.

My Audi insists that it will help me hear speech better. It doesn't. It makes it worse and very irritating. I sit and listen to people spit out T's and S's along with Th's, Tiss's, P's, ect; that are so over driven that it clashes and clouds over any remote chance of understanding regular speech frequencies. It's like sitting next to the cymbal player while trying to listen to the rest of the band play the "Eighteen Twelve Overture". Everything is bright and brassy. It really adds to your irritability level and speech resolutation capabilities.

Don't the "non-hearing inpaired" hearing aid engineers/designers understand this??? The ReSound Azure, out of the box, is better about this with one of it's programs and the other programs are not too far from tweeking closer to correctness. The Moxi products I could not tweek enough to find any peace. Also the ReSound Azure's noise programs work better.

[xbulder]

I hope I don't say the wrong thing here and mislead people who don't have answers and are looking here for them. I get the feeling that "industry wide" digital hearing aid manufacturers tweek the high and slightly higher (than normal speech) frequencies to promote enunciation of speech. This is what I was told (right or wrong???).

If this is true, I have an issue with that. However my circumstance is not the same as many/most others.For thoes who it is, here goes. I have the middle speech frequencies going out on me with some low frequencies also. The high frequencies are fine. Now I have to wear hearing aids that have a spiked high end.

My Audi insists that it will help me hear speech better. It doesn't. It makes it worse and very irritating. I sit and listen to people spit out T's and S's along with Th's, Tiss's, P's, ect; that are so over driven that it clashes and clouds over any remote chance of understanding regular speech frequencies. It's like sitting next to the cymbal player while trying to listen to the rest of the band play the "Eighteen Twelve Overture". Everything is bright and brassy. It really adds to your irritability level and speech resolutation capabilities.

Don't the "non-hearing inpaired" hearing aid engineers/designers understand this??? The ReSound Azure, out of the box, is better about this with one of it's programs and the other programs are not too far from tweeking closer to correctness. The Moxi products I could not tweek enough to find any peace. Also the ReSound Azure's noise programs work better.

i dont think that is true, most of the mid to lower price instrument follows one of the 2 most fitting formulas either NAL - NL1 and the DSL forumula, which are well tested and you could say are generic.. Other companies
for example have fitting formulas based on propietary research,
I can think of Resound Audiogram plus and Oticon Voice align compression, ASA2, Clarity, MF+ for example....

So your statement is not cleary accurate. So for example DSL is based on loudness normalization ....
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[NumbEars]

OK! Very good. I stand corrected and thanks for the explaination. But my actual experiences still stand.

[lucky1man]

Interesting discussion.

I had my Audi cut down the highs in both the Savia and Destiny as was painful (finger nails on blackboard) He said my loss (see first post) is typical of individ who are bothered by high freq.

I accept XBuilder explanation, maybe our losses are more sensitive to hi freqs.

By the way, just looked at specs on my old Stareky Sequel AVMMP, it has the two mics and can turn off rear mic. This gives up to 30 db signal reduction from back and sides. That is huge.

Am looking at Siemens Triano (three mics) in their specs say can manually control vol, and chose to use one or two mics: in addition have (i think) 2 or 3 digitally noise reduction programs.

Any one know if can MANUALLY control those mics?? Any other aids(regardless of generation have that capacity?)

XBUilder your professional input appreciated.

[xbulder]

Interesting discussion.

I had my Audi cut down the highs in both the Savia and Destiny as was painful (finger nails on blackboard) He said my loss (see first post) is typical of individ who are bothered by high freq.

I accept XBuilder explanation, maybe our losses are more sensitive to hi freqs.

By the way, just looked at specs on my old Stareky Sequel AVMMP, it has the two mics and can turn off rear mic. This gives up to 30 db signal reduction from back and sides. That is huge.

Am looking at Siemens Triano (three mics) in their specs say can manually control vol, and chose to use one or two mics: in addition have (i think) 2 or 3 digitally noise reduction programs.

Any one know if can MANUALLY control those mics?? Any other aids(regardless of generation have that capacity?)

XBUilder your professional input appreciated.

Dear Sir:

If by controlling the microhones you mean controlling when the aid is @ directional and when it is an Omni directional, most brands and most
economical hearing aids have for example program 1 omni
and program 2 full directional. Out of the top of my head I can think pf the GO pro Oticon which has that capability, the Resound Plus 5 as fell. are just examples...

The triano was never a hughe sucess, i would say 3 microsphones does not necesarily work better than 2. Ideally I would say, you want something more than a directional and omnidirectional for example Oticon has
focus (full directional), Omni and also a setting in between when the instrument does not need to be to agressive...

In addition, you might also want adaptative directionality, that is a that the plot of the directionaly changes, (most expensive or mid price instrument have already adaptative directionality...

Lately, resound came with an instrument call "natural directionality"
which basicly has an intrument set directional and the other omni,
this suposelly provides a better awareness of the soroundings...

For example, most directional microhones HA focus on the speech
thatis in front of you and reduce what is back...

think about the following we are in a party you are talking to me and your
wife is behind you asking for something.. if the instrument is on fixed directionallity you might be hearing me real well and reducing signal of interest (your wife).. Resound claims that this can be avoided with their instrument.. this is an insteresting and novel concept...

A while ago, I started to look at my instruments datalogging (clients)
and notice that if the client where say 70% in speech in noise,
the instrument will not necesarilly use the directionallity all the time...

I have not heard a convicing explanation of this...

My guess is that when the client speaks the instruments reads a high S/N ration and therefore despite the noise it does not set itself in directional..

does anyone has a better explanation for this?
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[jay_man2]

xbulder, I tried the Azure, and did find that I had a better awareness of my surroundings with them. For other reasons, I decided to buy the Pulse, but I really liked the sound quality and "natural directionality" of the Azure.

Just a couple of days ago I encountered a tough listening situation behind me with people talking, and kids running and yelling, and remember thinking that the Azure's would have handled that situation better than my Pulse's.

[lucky1man]

Thanks XBuilder/Jay /Numb:

Yes that is exactly what I mean; a way to manually control directional mic and omni. In other words can turn off the noise from back /sides and concentrate on speech in front.

I need to study all your comments more.

Thanks all

[xbulder]

Thanks XBuilder/Jay /Numb:

Yes that is exactly what I mean; a way to manually control directional mic and omni. In other words can turn off the noise from back /sides and concentrate on speech in front.

I need to study all your comments more.

Thanks all

if this is what you want, you will be able to buy hearing aids - cheap branded aids which performs this function

out the top of my head


1 oticon go pro
2 GN plus 5 or even the cheaper canta 2
3 Widex bravisimo
4 Phonak Una - not completely sure

consider that if you decide this makes sense when you decide to switch from omni to directional you need to switch each aid, this could be cumbersome
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[xbulder]

by the way.....

the pulse has something call enviromental steering, which is really nothing more than a dual attack and release time, When oticon introduce the epoq this feature was called true dynamics....

Gn has been by far the most understimated HA company....


the air i think was the 1st open instrument.. clearly ahead of its time
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[lucky1man]

Thanks XBuilder:

You really help a lot of people on this forum. Will bring info to my Audi.

I think if I could design my own hearing aid; I would have a digital aid with one program to allow manual directional (ability to turn off omni or rear mic)and perhaps couple digital noise reduction programs to utilize. Of course, remote control would be nice too.

I can dream.

Similar to automatic transmission in a car that has option of manual shift so driver has more control when needed.

Thanks again.

[NumbEars]

My Azure mini BTE came with seven programs. Only four of which can be turned on, in the software, for use at a time and become set (user unadjustable without software). You get to decide which programs you want. The other Azure mini BTE has a volume control on the outside of each unit and adaptive learning. One is the D1 and the other the V1, I think. I know what adaptive learning is, but is it, and the volume control, better than what is in the other unit? I am confused as to which of the two would be better and why. I wish I could get a clear explaination between the two minus the ReSound Azure buzzword explainations of things.:o

[jay_man2]

My audie indicated that the volume control version only has one mic, since the volume control sits about where a second mic is located. I'd rather have the two mics than a mic and a volume control.

[xbulder]

My Azure mini BTE came with seven programs. Only four of which can be turned on, in the software, for use at a time and become set (user unadjustable without software). You get to decide which programs you want. The other Azure mini BTE has a volume control on the outside of each unit and adaptive learning. One is the D1 and the other the V1, I think. I know what adaptive learning is, but is it, and the volume control, better than what is in the other unit? I am confused as to which of the two would be better and why. I wish I could get a clear explaination between the two minus the ReSound Azure buzzword explainations of things.:o

trainable hearing aids is the next big think in hearing aids, this is almost a standart feature in all high end products, GN azure, Phonak Savia, Oticon Epoq, Siemens Centra, Unitro YUU, etc...
basically, over time the instrument begin to learn your volume preferences...
for example if you tend to lower the volume in noisy enviroments, over time
the instrument will learn and detect a pattern and therefore will apply this
preference so that you as a consumer do not have to do it constantly...
dif manufacturers call them diferent names, but they basically the same..

One small improvement is Oticon Epoq where it also volume and I think something else was also optimized (i dont recall of the top of my head)...

this in 2-3 yrs time will be standart in most mid price aids,.....
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[NumbEars]

So in the one Azure (AZ6o-V1) I get a volume control (with the ability for the unit to learn the settings and switch automatically), automatic program selection made for you and one microphone on each unit. In the other model (AZ6o-D1) Azure I get 2 microphones with better hearing adaption for speech (adaptive directionality), manual program changes, a computer set overall volume w/no manual outside adjustment, no adaptive learning, and a wind noise canceler.:confused:

It says, onReSounds web site, that my unit (D1) has "Softswitching automatic program selection". But on my Azure D1's I have to manually select the program I want via the buttons on the top of the HA's (????).:confused:

I have another "tuning it up" session with the Audi on the 3rd of Jan. After I tune up some of the minor issues I will give it a day or two and then publish my owners review/report. I am thinking that the Azure will be the one to stick with.:)

[lucky1man]

So, after six weeks returned the Savia ART, and Stark Destiny to Audi.

I found the automatic noise reduc system in the Savia would change capriciously from max to mild reduc every minute to minute and half. It does not learn; and not useful. The manual noise reduc (we set in moderate) reduced speech too much.

Destiny Auto(noise reduc) program would change every 20 seconds (good lord) manual nosie reduc program (we also set in moderate) had terrible background reverberation and not better than my old Starkey with direcitonal mics.

I am following XBuilder's recommendation to try next week(older generation) Widex Bravissimo (digital) which has a toggle for volume, yeah!) and old fash direc mics. You can click on front mic )directional or both Omni in calm listening. Gives a 30 db reduc in noise from sides to back. Also, Starky Cierra (similar)Of course, you must be facing away from noise, not always possible.

My Audi also looking for new generation aid without the auto noise reduction feature. Hoping for maybe two manual noise reduciton channels . So can set one to mild, other to moderate. (manual vol control a must)

XBuilder (anyone) know of such system'

Thanks again

[xbulder]

thanks a lot, i believe i know about the same as most audi´s
cheers,

[Catalina]

Are you currently in BTE's. If so, is there a reason a CIC has not been considered?
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[xbulder]

So in the one Azure (AZ6o-V1) I get a volume control (with the ability for the unit to learn the settings and switch automatically), automatic program selection made for you and one microphone on each unit. In the other model (AZ6o-D1) Azure I get 2 microphones with better hearing adaption for speech (adaptive directionality), manual program changes, a computer set overall volume w/no manual outside adjustment, no adaptive learning, and a wind noise canceler.:confused:

It says, onReSounds web site, that my unit (D1) has "Softswitching automatic program selection". But on my Azure D1's I have to manually select the program I want via the buttons on the top of the HA's (????).:confused:

I have another "tuning it up" session with the Audi on the 3rd of Jan. After I tune up some of the minor issues I will give it a day or two and then publish my owners review/report. I am thinking that the Azure will be the one to stick with.:)

softswithing is a fancy way of calling that the directional microphones change
automatically.... I believe im right on this one...

resound does not change between program to my knowledge only phonak does (is this right?)

[lucky1man]

XBuilder:

Again, preciate all ur help. In prev msg u seem to indicate that GN Azure could have auto noise reduc set to manual adaptive so not change. (maybe I not clear) My Audi says not poss. Sim to Savia, not possible.

We are look for new gen hearing aid with two noise reduc programs that we can set to manual. We want turn off auto so Audi can set one to mild reduc other to mod or max reduc. I have choice of two programs of noise reduc that do NOT change.

Cn u think of any??

I thank you, my Audi thanks you.

[xbulder]

im at home. please send me your email so that i can take picturs of the azure
and how it can have more than one noise reduction, i still believe it is posible but i will double check.. by the way, i think you can get this feature in other instruments shuch as the metrix, and i think even the pixel

[ed121]

Nit picking. Lucky1man: I don't think any aid with intrinsic close spaced mikes can give a 30db directional pattern.

The ability of multi-mike directional systems to pick up in one direction and to attenuate in other directions is called the Directional Index (DI) measured in decibels.

The max practical DI is about 12 and because of drift (in the parts) about 10 db or less is the usual max. Most aids are lucky to achieve 6db. But even 6db results in better comprehension in noisy environments. Ed

[lucky1man]

Thanks for input.

The 30 db is from the literature published by Starkey for their analog MMVP sequel circa yr 2000.

This the aid i presently own. Dont know if that is valid claim; but so far provides MUCH better noise reduciton than present generation Phonak Savia and Stareky 1600/1200. (for me)

The MMVP has two mics and is Mechanical (my terms) it simply shuts off the rear mic Completely.

Old fashioned, but it works. Sigh.