Ever Felt Like You Were Ripped Off?

[Admin]

If you have, please share your expriences here.

I see that there are no posts in this area, so I have to assume that is a good thing, though.

[windknot1]

I have some problems with what I may be getting in to. Though I have two
brothers wearing aids, they seem to not be satisfied with the units they
purchased and also have problems with the dealers of the products. It is
apparent that this is a business for profit regardless. Each dealer is in favor
of selling via the best profit rather than service and quality. I also see that
support from the dealer/manufacturer can also be a problem. When I see
the cost for such devises, I am scared whether my investment will provide
me the best. Instruments up to $7,000 is outrages.:mad:

[Admin]

It is always best to reseach prospective companies you are planning to do business with, ask doctors and other hearing aid wearers for referrals and check with your local Better Business Bureau to see if they are members.

Certain manufacturers will also back up their products better than others, so I would research them too.

Although no hearing aid can make hearing perfect again, a competent professional should be able to tell you what can be attained, verify each hearing aid fitting and provide you with after the sale service.

[cortez]

I believe Oticon has an unfair practice where the older the hearing aid is the more they charge for a repair.

[ZCT]

I don't really see how that is unfair cortez. In order to service hearing aids that are say 10 years old, the company needs to keep old parts in stock just on the off chance that someone will want a repair. The aid may have long since been discontinued yet they need to keep dozens of parts lying around and continue to purchase and store these components so that their patients can continue to get service. Would you rather they simply told you that the unit was discontinued and could no longer be repaired like some companies do?

While it may be fustrating I'm not sure it is fair to post it in the 'Ever felt you were ripped off?' section.

[cortez]

I can see your point after say 5 years after the model is phased out. However, Oticon raised the repair cost beginning 12 months after the purchase and ratcheting up every year. Within this 5 year period, the manufacturer can (at least should) expect aids coming back for repair given that 5 years is a typical wear period.

[ZCT]

Surely the first 12 months should be free under warranty repair?

Out of interest, what were they charging after one, two, three, four and five years?

[xbulder]

I always try to pick what is best for each costumer regardless of price.
Not the highest price instrument, most of my clients appreciate this
and buys from me again. I would like to think most dispensers are like this,
and pick what is best for you. Sometime clients are not willing to make a compromise and therefore, the choice has to be a very high end product.
________
Zx14 Vs Hayabusa (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_bike_is_quicker_kawasaki_zx_-14_or_suzuki_hayabusa)

[JgearyAud]

I have found that the best products are often the mid-line products, not the high end ones. I think there are several reasons for this. First, the patient doesnt expect as much from the mid-line products and are much more satisfied. Second, the technology in the high end products is new. Ever bought the first generation telephone or iPod? They always are terrible. It takes a few years to work the kinks out of new technology.

[xbulder]

most of my clients are very demanding, perhaps that is why i dont sell
any entry level aids.. But i must say there are some mid level products
when i started to fit hearing aids, we had either
top of the line digital or basic analoge.. do you remember late 90's
________
Uggs (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[louisd11]

I believe Oticon has an unfair practice where the older the hearing aid is the more they charge for a repair.
THEY DO! I still use their Personic 400 :(

[maplewood]

I have not worn hearing aids before. The Doctor said I have "slight hearing loss" in my right ear. I also have a bad case of tinnitus. She felt that outside the ear (behind the ear?) aids would help the tinnitus and after getting past the cosmetic issues I made the appointment with the audiologist who ordered three different brands of aids (Widex, Resound Dot, and the Oticon with the Bluetooth feature). I gave her the $400 deposit and returned when the hearing aids were in.

When we tried them I experienced what I have come to know as "occlusion." Each one sounded like I was inside a barrel. The audiologist suggested that my hearing loss might not be significant enough to need such powerful hearing aids. Since the doctor and the audiologist picked the style of hearing aid in the first place, I really did start to feel like I was buying something from a car salesman.

When I was leaving, the audiologist said that she was sorry but they couldn't return my deposit. When I objected (under the premise that no molds were made and all the hearing aids were going back to their respective manufacturers), she talked with her supervisor who instructed her to refund the $400 to me. I really felt like they were just taking a shot at the deposit and that made me feel even more like I was dealing with a car salesman.

I really don't know what my next move will be. The audiologist only liked the brands that they carried and that would negate a brand like Siemens who seems to be an important player in the hearing aid business.

I have only gone to this one audiologist who is tied to the doctor in some way or other. Is it just as credible to pick a retailer who is recommended by Siemens or some other brand? I'm really lost with respect to where I should buy $6,000 products!

[joesc]

As long as you have your hearing test results, you can go to anyone you want. You should feel comfortable with the people your working with.

[maplewood]

Thanks for the response.

I understand that I may go anywhere to make the purchase but aside from visiting the dozen or so places that sell hearing aids near my home, what other indications do you look for when you go out to look at a certain brand or type of retailer.

I don't think this is like buying a flat screen tv where you measure by brand, style, picture, and have lots of input about the retailer.

I really feel like I'm in the dark with this very expensive first-time purchase and any help is appreciated.

[shanff]

I checked out 3 different dispensers now that it's time to look into my 5th pair of hearing aids. I've had cheap ($1500/pair) hearing aids the past few times and I'm looking for something better now. The first audi automatically chose to propose the Phonak MicroPower HAs based on my loss and sent me home with the sales brochure. The 2nd dispenser just told me that a pair of hearing aids would set me back $4500 without even telling me what brand/model he was thinking about. Neither cared about what I was looking for nor were they interested in investigating any of the other options that I had suggested.

The third one, and ultimately the one I am working with now talked to me for about a half hour while I was making my appointment (in person), listened to what I wanted and actually did some research on some other options outside of what they typically offer so that I had some actual choices when I came back. I felt as if my opinion mattered, something I did not get from the first 2. I'll probably pay closer to MSRP on the aids, but at least I don't feel as if I'm being pressured into something that I really don't want.

[BABS]

I have been wearing hearing aids since I was a small child. I have purchased many aids over the years. I would say that I have been ripped off about 50% of the time. Mose dealers want to sell you the aids that are the priciest as opposed to the ones that work the best for you. They prey on those of us who are desperate to hear better.

The younger you are the more likely they are to rip you off.

I have been wearing aids for a long time so I am more cautious now of HA places. For those of you just entering the HA market , BEWARE! One thing I have learned , don't take THEIR word that a particular aid is the best one for you. Try as many different HA as possible..

REMEMBER, these are YOUR ears and nobody knows how you hear but you! I have had Doctors suggest an aid that were a disaster for me! You are the ONLY one that knows how well you can hear with a particular aid!

[Khenkels]

I am beginning to feel scamed..or maybe it is the arrogance of these people. Yesturday, I was told that "I" was the only person that has had so many problems and needed so many adjustments...:rolleyes: :eek:

[john ross]

Some Costco stores are selling name brand aids w/ 60 trial period.

[john ross]

Costco sells name brand aids at about half price w/ a 60 day trial period.

[NW Audiologist]

I believe Oticon has an unfair practice where the older the hearing aid is the more they charge for a repair.

Most manufacturers have preset fixed price scales based off the following:

Age of device (under/over 5 years)
analog or digital
length of warranty (6 or 12 months)

Any other criteria is determined by the office handling the repair.

[Lakejan]

I definitely think if you feel like you cannot fully trust the audie to work FOR you, and not just for your money, you should interview another. I'm getting to believe that all the top hearing aids are terrific: oticon, resound, siemens, widex, and more - but it's the audies and how they program our aids that makes the biggest difference. I started out with years ago with wonderful people who moved away. Then hooked up with a group connected to a major teaching hospital in Philly, and that person was pretty rude - I finally left her, and am now trying a new person, who seems pretty savvy and willing to work with me.
Remember that part of that $6000 +- that you are paying for the aids is going toward the future service on those hearing aids, so the audie has to be willing to work with you from the getgo, or you won't get the service that you've paid for, and deserve.

[Lucille]

I am beginning to feel scamed..or maybe it is the arrogance of these people. Yesturday, I was told that "I" was the only person that has had so many problems and needed so many adjustments...:rolleyes: :eek:

Not only would I walk out the door if I heard a comment like that, I would report them to your state attorney general. To me, harrassing a customer like that amounts to an unfair business practice. After all, the money you pay is not only for the hearing aid itself, it is for the advice and adjustments and some people need more than others.

I am planning to talk to people who have hearing aids in my community, and my doctor who I trust, prior to picking an audiologist.
I would have no hesitation to take legal action if I was ripped off and Texas has particularly powerful consumer fraud statutes but I don't want to do that if I can avoid it, so I will research first.

Along the way, if I hear scam stories, I will help those I hear. Audiology services are valuable and worth money. Audiologists spend time and their own money gaining experience and I do not mind paying for that as it benefits me. Scammers are worthless and worth retribution.

[Alex]

I never would have thought people would review hearing centers on Yelp, but some do. This is another good resource to check.

[pipegarcia]

We as an audiologist profession are moving toward a doctoring curriculum. This mean that we need a more extensive training program toward hearing and balance pathologies. Any complaint toward any audiologist professional can be addresses to the local Audiology academy or the national American Academy of Audiology. Both entities have ethical panel that have the responsibility to evaluate any complaint of patient toward any audiologist. Also all audiologist have to be license by the government. This is very important and imperative that any patient that visit an audiologist office check all the credential of fellow audiologist. You can visit the American Academy of Audiologist to find fellow member of the academy by state location. This can be a good starting point to find a competent audiologist.:)

[Hask12]

I don't get this. Do people just walk in to the first audiologist they see listed in the yellow pages and then let him pick the aids for them, and then complain later when they are not happy? Everyone needs to take a little time before they buy anything, and if they are not happy with the way things are going then just walk out. Audiologists are like any other profession, there are good ones and bad ones. My first meeting, some 18 years ago, with my current audiologist was just a matter of sitting and talking. No sales pitch, no high pressure. To this day it's still the same. He makes me feel like he cares. When something breaks he gets me in immediately. I've learned to trust him and respect his opinion. Are hearing aids ridiculously expensive. Yes. But when I pay for mine at least I don't feel like something is being shoved down my throat, or in my ear. I consider myself fortunate.

[jem16]

Today I was told that I was too high maintenance as I had made it clear that I had talked to several people about my hearing loss. Basically I was told that I would require too much work for too little reward.

This has all transpired because I am having great difficulty getting aids that do anything for my loss and I have looked on various forums in an effort to understand why.

I am feeling that the hearing aid business is a rip-off!

[Dick]

After 2 years of ''Well come in and we will adjust them'' my Siemen's Cielos never did work right, still aren't working right, keep drifting to the shrill end, and now the provider tells me it is too late to do anything. I feel I was sold a defective product, and then strung along until it was too late. Ripped off is a mild way of putting it.

[blackmamba]

Would i be correct in saying that you are really at the mercy of the audiologist ?

Thats say you meet an audiologist who makes a larger margin selling a certain model or brand or wants to promote a name brand for whatever reason not known to you. Considering he or she is the audiologist they can program whatever they want to program into a digital HA. They can do as they choose if you have not done the research and found someone you can trust .

A simple example is in an electronics shop. If you want to push a particular model or brand you simply step up the contrast or use a better signal into the brand you want too push. Look you can see for yourself Sir that this TV clearly has a better picture ? Yep that looks clear too me ! Sign me up !

So in the end the audiologist is clearly the person in control and it is very important they have only your best interest in mind. I would suggest THAT MOST DO HAVE YOUR BEST INTEREST IN MIND . Find one of them and you should have a full satisfaction guaranty that they are impartial and can get the job done.

[EnglishDispenser]

I can see your point after say 5 years after the model is phased out. However, Oticon raised the repair cost beginning 12 months after the purchase and ratcheting up every year. Within this 5 year period, the manufacturer can (at least should) expect aids coming back for repair given that 5 years is a typical wear period.
In my experience in the UK manufacturers usually charge a fixed standard repair fee to the dispenser.

(Warranties usually run for 2 years before repair fees are incurred.)

If your supplier has THEIR OWN rather creative fee schedule, perhaps that could explain the situation?

[Hask12]

Hmm. I was able to purchase an extended warranty from Oticon, and everytime something went wrong with the aids they just replaced the aids instead of fixing them.

[Normandy]

My Audi told me that my old hearing aids (Siemens) could not be repaired (http://www.hearsource.com/hearing_aid_repair.html) and suggested that I buy new ones. I sent them to an online repair shop and they repaired them for me for $99 each. When I received them back they sounded great. So much for not being able to be repaired. :confused:

[hearnow]

My Audi told me that my old hearing aids (Siemens) could not be repaired and suggested that I buy new ones. I sent them to an online repair shop and they repaired them for me for $99 each. When I received them back they sounded great. So much for not being able to be repaired. :confused:

The audi would have sent the aid to Siemens, who would have decided it is DBR'd as it is too old. So the problem lies with Siemens (and other manufacturers) and not the aud. HearSource would have most likley replaced parts such as mic or receiver with generic parts.

[yoggem]

May be little about six months back Costco, Rohnert park sold me a pair of Hearing Aid called Avio ITE, i paid almost $ 3000.00 it was very frustrating experience with this hearing aid and programmer, any noise or in restaurant it impossible to hear any one, this hearing Aid was worst then those old sound amplification kind of . I had to communicate Inerton expert to guide me and they told me i should not be using this hearing aid after studing my two audiograms. They recommended me Avio 3. Now Costco says that all hearing aids are useless for me since i have nerve deafness and it is over 60%.
Can anyone guide me which hearing aid is good for nerve deafness? My work environment is public place so i have to deal with lots of noise.
Costco will not sell me Avio 3 because i am too demanding. If i was given wrong hearing aid by their own staff then it is my fault? Getting an appointment at Costco is Luck, some time it takes 4-5 week for reprogramming. It is great company and great customer service however their hearing department in Sonoma county suck.

[Normandy]

The audi would have sent the aid to Siemens (http://www.hearsource.com/hearing_aid_repair.html), who would have decided it is DBR'd as it is too old. So the problem lies with Siemens (and other manufacturers) and not the aud. HearSource would have most likley replaced parts such as mic or receiver with generic parts.

HearNow, there is no such thing as a "generic" electronic part. A mic is a mic and a speaker is a receiver. Most all come very few manufacturers in the world. Please don't confuse a hearing aid manufacturer (assembler) with an electronics or component manufacturer. Unfortunately, you may be right about Siemens not repairing their own hearing aids, but these were only 4 1/2 years old. My personal feeling was that the audi. needed a sale.

[ms870]

Yoggem writes,
"Can anyone guide me which hearing aid is good for nerve deafness? My work environment is public place so i have to deal with lots of noise".


I personally like Phonak they have really stepped it up lately. You want to look into a few of their models which include Sound Recover and Zoom Control, which are awesome.
I think saying that you are too demanding is inappropriate behavior on the dispensers part. You can call Phonak and ask them for a reputable dealer in your area. Let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

[funeardoc]

The Siemens hearing aids that are compatible with the Tek Devices, such as Pure and Motion, are really cool and they work well in noisy environments.

www.hearingaiddocs.com (http://www.hearingaiddocs.com)

[jayel]

Had two Beltone representatives sell me top of the line digital HAs then never were able to adjust properly. Then after two years of screwing around with them, they want to sell me new, better latest technology. Beltone is no help, will not stand behind their product or their representatives. I may be burned by somebody else, but never again by Beltone.

[Rover]

Hi,

I just came back from my audiologist after a week-long test of very expensive hearing aids. I've been going to him for about 5 years. I can't afford a new one right now so I asked him to adjust my current aids. He took each one out of the room to vacuum them out, as he worked on each one. Later, when I picked up my newest and best one, I noticed it was cracked. he had taken off the door to insert the programming connection (which I'd never noticed him do before.) However, the crack was not at the hinge but at the vent, as he pointed out. I never noticed the crack before, which was quite substantial going almost down the whole length of the hearing aid, with a chunk at the vent and in the middle missing. Seems to me I would have noticed it before. He said it was a good thing I saw it and would have to be rebuilt sometime, soon. He then put some clear stuff on it that looked like nail polish.

Hmmmm.

I'm suspicious, by nature, I think. And I'm suspicious of this, esp. since a few months ago I accompanied a friend to a different audiologist because she needed work on her hearing aid. She's 90. He was a new audiologist to her. Somehow the hinge broke while there. Also, the hearing aid became cracked. It was old, which was the xplanation. he put some clear stuff on it. Found another hinge that miraculously fit, And didn't charge her. It was all very cumbaya. He invited us to a hearing aid special event the following week. My friend bought a new hearing aid from him because he was so nice and helpful. I checked out the prices of the hearing aid he found for me and discovered them for much lower prices online. Said I'd think about it.

I'm reminded of what I used to hear about auto mechanics causing damage so they could fix it.

Could this be true?!!!! Has anyone else discovered a damaged hearing aid after going to the audiologist?

Thanks.

[EnglishDispenser]

Hey, this sort of thing happens.

Someone brings in an old aid, possibly dirty.

Your clean it with a wipe, brush out any muck ... and - kapow - the darned thing falls apart!

Programming connectors are the worst ... the pins corrode invisibly ... you stick in the cable ... and disaster.

Once I received an aid which fell apart when inserting the connector ... it was out of warranty so the client DEMANDED that I pay for the damage. I later found that the aid had been exposed to months of salt spray ...

I have become much more cautious nowadays : people complain about greedy dispensers ... but there are also many end users who don't want to pay for repairs and who KNOWINGLY & UNFAIRLY dump the bill onto the dispenser.

I don't make much money and I try to offer a fair low cost service, so I find this sort of behaviour difficult to deal with.

[Rover]

I'm going to write him a letter because the sequence of events doesn't make sense.

How is it possible that the audi and I handled the hearing aid several times while he showed me that the little plastic insert had wax in it, using a doctors magnifier light, and neither of us noticed the crack, then?

He and I also used the doctors magnifier to look at where the microphone was, as opposed to the microphone hole in the battery door on this particular model, so I could clean it properly. Yet, neither of us noticed a crack, large gouge in the vent and chips along the crack in the body at that time!!!!

I suppose the damage could have happened after we inspected it, while he was vacuuming it, or even when he took the door off. If it did, why didn't he show it to me and tell me about it, at that time, esp. since the crack made the hearing aid body fairly UNSTABLE!!!!

The only explanation seems to be that the crack and gouges spontaneously happened AFTER he laid it on the table but before he programmed it, since that's when I noticed it––from across the table.

Good thing you saw that, he says. It will be a couple of hundred dollars to remake a body. Fortunately they have it digitized.

Good thing.

Salt, you say, or something??? Uh-huh. A customer trying to lay off repairs on the dispenser? Uh-huh.

Happens all the time, you say? Uh-huh.

Why did he have to remove the battery door to program it?? And why didn't he say anything if it happened when he was working on it and because of my bad care? Why did I have to point it out to him, how could he have missed it while we/he was doing all those things to it?

When I first saw it, I made myself ask him if he did it when he took off the door, which was really hard for me to confront him. but he pointed out that the crack started on the vent side and not the hinge side, putting me on the defensive, Immediately. Making me question myself and confusing me. First, I thought he did it on purpose to make a buck. then I felt badly about that. So now I give him the benefit of the doubt that he made a mistake but is not mature enough to own up to it. Either way. He will never get another dime from me. He will get a Yelp! whether he makes good on it or not. Unless he totally apologizes! I'm sick of being at the mercy of medical "professionals." Sick of it.

I'm just wondering if any other customers have had anything similar happen to them in an audiologist's office? And what they thought.

Since the process of getting a hearing aid is so expensive and opaque, I need all the information and support I can get so I don't feel or get ripped off.

Thanks.

[EnglishDispenser]

Happens all the time, you say? Uh-huh.
Don't misquote me.

I did NOT say 'all the time'.

Mobile phones break, watches break, hearing aids break.

For example, I looked at my watch the other day ... but more closely than usual, as it seemed a bit dirty. The gold plating is coming off ... time for a new watch!

Now if I had taken the watch for a clean to a watchmakers shop, and they then cleaned the aid and pointed out the failed plating, I might be tempted to blame THEM for damaging the gold plating.

"You wrecked my watch with your cleaning potions. They must have acid in. Or you brushed too hard. I want a new replacement!"

The watchmaker can't win: either he (unfairly) has to pay for a replacement ... or he has a raging customer who bad mouths him.

Whatever happens, I very much doubt that watchmakers, or hearing aid dispensers deliberately damage goods in for repair just to make a sale.

[ed121]

One of the things that that bothers me about the hearing aid business is the attempt to present the dispensing and fitting of aids as if it were part of the medical profession. There is no comparison between a MD and a doctor of audiology and an even greater disparity is between a MD and a licensed Dispenser, who in some states only needs a high school education plus 6 months on the job training.

The fact is that the audiologists and dispensers are in the retail business and provide services to facilitate the sale of merchandise....i.e.: hearing aids.

But just because these guys and gals are retailers doesn't mean they are unethical. There are good ethical retailers and some retailers not so good or ethical.

And a smart retailer knows that to build a clientel and be financialy sucessful, you must please your customers. Ed

[EnglishDispenser]

One of the things that that bothers me about the hearing aid business is the attempt to present the dispensing and fitting of aids as if it were part of the medical profession
In the UK I would be taken to court by the regulatory authorities if I called my office a 'clinic' or even if I started wearing a white coat!

We are NOT allowed in any way to act like doctors.

[ed121]

English: I have seen hearing aid offices with fancy diploma's on the wall. White coats and the holier than thou attitude. And the receptionist referred to the man as the Doctor. ( he did have a doctorate of audiology)... USA of course. Worked well I guess with the predominately old folks.

Such a charade makes the job of selling the higher priced aids much easier, I imagine. Ed

[John59]

English: I have seen hearing aid offices with fancy diploma's on the wall. White coats and the holier than thou attitude. And the receptionist referred to the man as the Doctor. ( he did have a doctorate of audiology)... USA of course. Worked well I guess with the predominately old folks.

Such a charade makes the job of selling the higher priced aids much easier, I imagine. Ed

wow were you in tucson Arizona when you saw the hearing aid office with fancy diploma's on the wall. White coats and the holier than thou attitude. And the receptionist referred to the man as the Doctor. ???

that is exactly how one of the places where I have been reffered to by my healthcare insurance company to get hearing aids..

The doctor will see you now John, lol the receptionist always tells me . all of the fitters, opps I mean doctors wear white coats here. The other thing i like is when they say "I'm a doctor how dare you question my programming of your hearing aid. I know better then you what you need to hear.. the people at phonak will also back me up 100 Percent . do you want me to call them right now..

[dr.amy]

While a degree of any kind is no excuse to act like a tool (which is how these audis sound) - it is a valid point that a fair number of audis actually do NOT fit hearing aids.

They work in an entirely different facet of the Audiology field. These facets include: evaluating and treating balance disorders, auditory processing disorders, auditory rehabilitation. And MANY work for hospitals that dispense hearing aids (such as childrens hospitals) in which the audi does not benefit whatsoever from fitting the hearing aids, it's simply our job. And many audis (not all) that fit hearing aids in ENT clinics are simply salaried health care professionals, whether they fit you with an aid or not, someone else in benefitting (the practice), not the audi.

True - some audis work out of a retail business model, but not all ;).

dr. amy
(feel free to criticize, it doesnt take my degree away from me)

[xbulder]

While a degree of any kind is no excuse to act like a tool (which is how these audis sound) - it is a valid point that a fair number of audis actually do NOT fit hearing aids.

They work in an entirely different facet of the Audiology field. These facets include: evaluating and treating balance disorders, auditory processing disorders, auditory rehabilitation. And MANY work for hospitals that dispense hearing aids (such as childrens hospitals) in which the audi does not benefit whatsoever from fitting the hearing aids, it's simply our job. And many audis (not all) that fit hearing aids in ENT clinics are simply salaried health care professionals, whether they fit you with an aid or not, someone else in benefitting (the practice), not the audi.

True - some audis work out of a retail business model, but not all ;).

dr. amy
(feel free to criticize, it doesnt take my degree away from me)

this is true.... I would agree with Amy

[xbulder]

wow were you in tucson Arizona when you saw the hearing aid office with fancy diploma's on the wall. White coats and the holier than thou attitude. And the receptionist referred to the man as the Doctor. ???

that is exactly how one of the places where I have been reffered to by my healthcare insurance company to get hearing aids..

The doctor will see you now John, lol the receptionist always tells me . all of the fitters, opps I mean doctors wear white coats here. The other thing i like is when they say "I'm a doctor how dare you question my programming of your hearing aid. I know better then you what you need to hear.. the people at phonak will also back me up 100 Percent . do you want me to call them right now..

john: do you use a baha? how is it working for you? please post your review

[EricFlatpick]

Midline products? Such as analog hearing aids? Fugeddaboutit. Phonak has phased them out--the only kind you can GET now is a much more expensive digital aid--and never mind if the old analog aid sounds clearer and makes for better speech recognition. I have sev-prof loss in both ears, and would buy higher-gain version of my present programmable analog aids (Phonak Sonofortes) in a flash if I could. But they don't make 'em. US automakers used to practice what is called "planned obsolescence," by making each year's car design strikingly different, and deliberately not building cars that would last that long. So that there was always a reason--increased part failures, rusting, a design that looks exponentially older every year--to buy a new, not a used, car. Or, think of our drug manufacturers, who lobby to delay the generic version of any of their products as long as possible--and come up with new products that while new, have in more than once instance not been appreciably more effective. Now, back to hearing aids: is piling on more expensive, new features and technology ("feature creep") that don't necessarily improve the patient's hearing, while REMOVING from manufacture instruments that lack the new features but work fine, a fair way to treat consumers whose handicap makes them a captive audience?? It's outrageous, plain and simple. Phonak, at least, is rolling in profits. That's why they make those fancy cases that can be discarded if you don't buy the aids, and that's how they produce all the professional video testimonials that are posted (for free!) at YouTube. If you ask me, it's a scam of emperor's-new-clothes proportions.

[Walter]

The hearing aid industry sure can be a rip off. As the audiologist have pretty much taken over the hearing aid (http://www.hearsource.com/index.html) industry they have selected the most expensive and least efficient business model to pattern themselves after. The medical office model. High overhead and low volume. It's a sweet gig if you can get by with it.

[leomtodd]

Can you tell me why they cost soooo much?:confused:

[EnglishDispenser]

Midline products? Such as analog hearing aids? Fugeddaboutit. Phonak has phased them out--the only kind you can GET now is a much more expensive digital aid--and never mind if the old analog aid sounds clearer and makes for better speech recognition. I have sev-prof loss in both ears, and would buy higher-gain version of my present programmable analog aids (Phonak Sonofortes) in a flash if I could. But they don't make 'em. US automakers used to practice what is called "planned obsolescence," by making each year's car design strikingly different, and deliberately not building cars that would last that long. So that there was always a reason--increased part failures, rusting, a design that looks exponentially older every year--to buy a new, not a used, car. Or, think of our drug manufacturers, who lobby to delay the generic version of any of their products as long as possible--and come up with new products that while new, have in more than once instance not been appreciably more effective. Now, back to hearing aids: is piling on more expensive, new features and technology ("feature creep") that don't necessarily improve the patient's hearing, while REMOVING from manufacture instruments that lack the new features but work fine, a fair way to treat consumers whose handicap makes them a captive audience?? It's outrageous, plain and simple. Phonak, at least, is rolling in profits. That's why they make those fancy cases that can be discarded if you don't buy the aids, and that's how they produce all the professional video testimonials that are posted (for free!) at YouTube. If you ask me, it's a scam of emperor's-new-clothes proportions.
Sorry, but that's a total load of cynical ill-informed hogwash.

Simple low-cost high-power digital aids DO exist.
They can be programmed to act 100% like your old analogue aids. (There is NOTHING magic or special about analogue technology - it can be precisely emulated by a digital processor)

So ... you CAN buy what you want ... probably at a fair price.

The truth is that The Good Old Days were never actually that great, so there is little point in pining for outdated analogue technology.

However the aids won't be free ... they have to be fitted, which costs time and effort.

As for Phonak's profits ... would you rather they failed? Those profits paid for super 21st century products such as the Audeo YES IX.

Note: You CAN still buy analogue aids: try Tondi in Estonia, that centre of technological excellence.

[EnglishDispenser]

The hearing aid industry sure can be a rip off. As the audiologist have pretty much taken over the industry they have selected the most expensive and least efficient business model to pattern themselves after. The medical office model. High overhead and low volume. It's a sweet gig if you can get by with it.
OK, can you suggest an alternative which allows a dispenser to pay his/her mortgage?

I would LOVE to dump my office and all the problems associated with rent, taxes etc so I am pacing up and down awaiting your suggestions.

[EnglishDispenser]

Can you tell me why they cost soooo much?:confused:
Briefly: it's due to a combination of:
- strict legal environments
- very low chip production runs leading to high hardware costs
- high manufacturer development costs
- the need to pay for professional support

[EricFlatpick]

Sorry, but that's a total load of cynical ill-informed hogwash.

Simple low-cost high-power digital aids DO exist.
They can be programmed to act 100% like your old analogue aids. (There is NOTHING magic or special about analogue technology - it can be precisely emulated by a digital processor)

So ... you CAN buy what you want ... probably at a fair price.

The truth is that The Good Old Days were never actually that great, so there is little point in pining for outdated analogue technology.

However the aids won't be free ... they have to be fitted, which costs time and effort.

As for Phonak's profits ... would you rather they failed? Those profits paid for super 21st century products such as the Audeo YES IX.

Note: You CAN still buy analogue aids: try Tondi in Estonia, that centre of technological excellence.
To English Dispenser: Thanks for your response to my post complaining about planned obsolescence. I don't wish Phonak went down the tubes, just that they didn't discontinue fine products that work so well for so many, so quickly--especially when the new products that replace them cost so much more, without providing appreciably superior aided hearing.

I don't believe there was any mention of "good old days" in my post, so I'll assume you're talking to someone else on that one, and rest assured, I understand that fitting takes time and money, thank you. I wouldn't buy a hearing aid without an audiologist's evaluation and advice. But I still don't appreciate having to pay lots more for a digital aid, just to have it programmed so that it's virtually linear. The bluetooth and fm capability is very convenient, but other than that, for me it's been a wash.

Finally, allow me a genuine, non-cynical question: are audiologists typically paid commissions from HA manufacturers on aids that they sell? I haven't asked my audiologist, because I don't want to sound suspicious (and I'm relatively happy with his advice), but what's the general practice?

[dr.amy]

Finally, allow me a genuine, non-cynical question: are audiologists typically paid commissions from HA manufacturers on aids that they sell? I haven't asked my audiologist, because I don't want to sound suspicious (and I'm relatively happy with his advice), but what's the general practice?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm.....allow me to shed some light without stepping on any toes.

There are several different situations in which audis and dispensers operate, so it does depend on who you see. I cant speak for dispensers, because i have never operated in a private hearing aid practice, but its safe to assume that they pay for the hearing aids (as any professional does) and then marks up the price to reflect costs they incur for fitting and servicing the aids. This cost can include many things such as payroll, office rent, equipment, etc...... just like ANY business!

I work in an ENT practice and the process is the same. The difference is that the Audiologists here are salaried employees and so prices and mark ups are set by the practice owners. Since the practice is funded by their money, the profit goes to them.

When commissions are paid by some practices, it is derived from the cushion of profit. Our owners receive no commission from the hearing aid manufacturer. It is illegal in the US for hearing aid manufacturers to offer us "perks" to sell their aids, and our license would be revoked by the state board in which we practice in if we were caught accepting any gifts. That doesn't mean that some manufacturers dont offer better prices than others......

Like I said, I can only speak for my experience. But something to remember is that what we do is, in fact, a business. Practice owners cannot sell the hearing aids for a price which doesn't cover their costs or allow them to make themselves a salary - ANY business is this way, including any medical or health related office. How much the owner decides to mark up the aids is up to them, which is why you see prices vary so much.

Feel free to commence with the stone throwing. ;)

dr. amy

[burra]

No stone throwing from me dr Amy :)... I think you've articulated things wonderfully!

[aquaskisiac]

After reading some of the postings, I had to sign up and share my experience with this industry from a Canadian market perspective.

In recent years manufacturers in Canada have been purchasing retail offices, and positions within some of the larger chain groups plus offering discounts (or "Points") to volume dealers. This is obviously a very gray area and not a beneficial setup for the end user as it limits the choices being offered to the patient, even if the dispenser/audiologist is only an employee, there is obviously going to be pressure to recommend certain brands only.
To add to this for the general public knowledge, 2 companies have a large percentage of the market through their ownership of hearing aid companies and equipment suppliers: William Demant Holdings owns 3 hearing aid companies (Oticon, Bernafon, Phonic Ear) Equipment suppliers Interacoustics,and Grason Stadler. GN Resound Group owns hearing aid manufacturers Beltone, Resound and Interton and equipment supplier Otometrics.

Forgot William Demant also owns Maico Diagnostics and Tremetrics, Otometrics has purchased several companies (Danplex, ICS Medical and a couple of German companies) which they have blended into their organization.

Sept 23 2010 Update
William Demant now owns Grason Stadler as of a few months ago, so the last of Clinical Audiometers made in the USA is now only a distribution company as all assembly is in Denmark and the components manufactured in the far East. I heard that Demant/Oticon have purchased Sonic Innovations, http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/news/news.asp?ticker=OTIX:US so the pool is getting shallower for choice, prices will only go up from here. No wonder the economies of North America are such a state with the selling off of good high tech companies to off shore interests.

[dr.amy]

Just one of the many reason why i dont think it's a good idea for manufacturers to be buying offices in the field. It limits options for audis and patients. No matter what a professional tells you, NO manufacturer is the best at EVERY aspect of hearing aids. Thats why patients need options to choose from and professionals need options from which to fit.

dr. amy

[aquaskisiac]

Thought I would add the following in a new reply to bring it TTT.

This industry is becoming very concentrated in the hands of a few and prices and choices are going to go in different directions. Oticons aggressive purchase of existing offices is also shifting the balance to one manufacturers dominance, giving the hearing care professionals less choice of product in the future.

It will almost certainly be a cartel with William Demant at the head. Sad that good North American Icon companies are being off shored, and used for their good name only.

Sept 23 2010 Update
William Demant now owns Grason Stadler as of a few months ago, so the last of Clinical Audiometers made in the USA is now only a distribution company as all assembly is in Denmark and the components manufactured in the far East. I heard that Demant/Oticon have purchased Sonic Innovations, http://investing.businessweek.com/re...ticker=OTIX:US (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/news/news.asp?ticker=OTIX:US) so the pool is getting shallower for choice, prices will only go up from here. No wonder the economies of North America are such a state with the selling off of good high tech companies to off shore interests.

[Kadougan]

To be fair to all in Canada, Oticon, Sonova/Phonak, Starkey and Siemens all have interests in dispensing clinics. Some are not owned by the manufacturers but are funded/financed by them. Some clinics need to sell a certain quantity of units to qualify for benefits or price discounts. I believe it is very difficult to find a fully independant supplier in all of Canada that is not somehow biased towards one supplier or another. I know there are still some great unbiased private independant suppliers out there but I think this is an endangered animal in the longterm.

[Kadougan]

On the otherside do many of us complain that auto manufacturers generally do not offer all products available on the market? We go to Ford to buy a Ford, Toyota to buy a Toyota etc.

[aquaskisiac]

On the otherside do many of us complain that auto manufacturers generally do not offer all products available on the market? We go to Ford to buy a Ford, Toyota to buy a Toyota etc.

I don't believe that consumers can make the same educated decision on a hearing aid as with a car. Understanding types of loss, best product for their loss, the complexity of the hearing aids and their features etc., and the industry jargon is just over whelming.

It may get to the point where they understand enough to make a decision on make, features etc. but that maybe the Ipod generation.

[dr.amy]

I am against manufacturers having a financial interest or share in audiology practices, but on the flip side, I feel the same way about cars as other people do about hearing aids. It's all greek to me no matter how hard i try to wade through all the bull and get to the point of what i NEED.


dr. amy

[burra]

I'm completely independent and have learnt the hard way to limit the amount of manufacturers I use.... purely for logistical reasons.. I justify this simply knowing that I'm not running around like a headless chook experimenting on my clients.... I know some manufacturers inside out and have a passing interest on others (if someone is adamant they want a particular brand it's easy for me to arrange or suggest another clinic)... As long as a few brands fill all needs why bother with too many?..... Furthermore, I don't think (unfortunately) there's a market for someone who dispenses all brands.. They'd go broke as they couldn't compete pricewise with the costcos and Internet sellers

[dr.amy]

I'm completely independent and have learnt the hard way to limit the amount of manufacturers I use.... purely for logistical reasons.. I justify this simply knowing that I'm not running around like a headless chook experimenting on my clients.... I know some manufacturers inside out and have a passing interest on others (if someone is adamant they want a particular brand it's easy for me to arrange or suggest another clinic)... As long as a few brands fill all needs why bother with too many?..... Furthermore, I don't think (unfortunately) there's a market for someone who dispenses all brands.. They'd go broke as they couldn't compete pricewise with the costcos and Internet sellers


I agree completely! I use a handful of manufacturers that I think serve every patient's needs. If a professional tries to offer ALL manufacturers, you can be sure that they can't possibly be proficient in fitting all of them. Especially considering they come out with new technology every 3 to 6 months.

Having said that, I do try my best to keep my ear to the ground about manufacturers that I do not currently fit, so that if they develop something I deem useful for my patients, I can add it to what I currently offer.


dr. amy

[Brad]

Sonova is being even more aggressive in the USA. Phonak, Unitron, Lyric, cochlear plus multiple purchase of retail offices. Also Widex just announced yesterday that they are taking over their US distribution from the company that has handled it for decades; translation: in addition to selling their hearing aids wholesale to Audis, Dispensers and ENTs they will now have their own stores.

[Kadougan]

I don't believe that consumers can make the same educated decision on a hearing aid as with a car. Understanding types of loss, best product for their loss, the complexity of the hearing aids and their features etc., and the industry jargon is just over whelming.

It may get to the point where they understand enough to make a decision on make, features etc. but that maybe the Ipod generation.

I never said it was easy to shop for a hearing aid, as Dr. Amy has mentioned below many people feel the same way about the automobile market.

It is the job of the hearing professional to explain things in a way the customer can understand. The customer HAS to trust the person they are dealing with. The other option is to perform research (of course this often results in more questions than answers), or to rely on word-of-mouth from trusted sources.

I can tell you that my mother walking into an electronics store to buy a TV, computer, or other electronic device would feel just as lost and have to rely on the salespersons expertise.

[Walter]

Sounds like this thread about people "Feeling Like Your Being Ripped Off" draws alot of very defensive attention from audi's within the hearing aid industry. I understand it is hard to be impartial when you got a horse in the race.

[CarScott]

Sounds like this thread about people "Feeling Like Your Being Ripped Off" draws alot of very defensive attention from audi's within the hearing aid industry. I understand it is hard to be impartial when you got a horse in the race.
Walter, one man's "defensive attention" is another's attempt to be understood.
The two way dialogue in this area should be helpful. Besides, those guilty of ripping off customers are not visiting sites like this because they're too busy lining up the next victim.

[aquaskisiac]

Thought I would update this posting:

William Demant has just recently purchased Gordon Stowe and Associates , assets of Hearusa Sennheiser corporation, and through their Audiometer manufacturer Interacoustics, they have purchased Radio Ear Corp, the American company that is the only supplier of Bone Conductors to the Audiometer industry. :(

Lots of Vertical Integration going on here, soon there will not be any competition on the equipment side, prices are sure to rise.


After reading some of the postings, I had to sign up and share my experience with this industry from a Canadian market perspective.

In recent years manufacturers in Canada have been purchasing retail offices, and positions within some of the larger chain groups plus offering discounts (or "Points") to volume dealers. This is obviously a very gray area and not a beneficial setup for the end user as it limits the choices being offered to the patient, even if the dispenser/audiologist is only an employee, there is obviously going to be pressure to recommend certain brands only.
To add to this for the general public knowledge, 2 companies have a large percentage of the market through their ownership of hearing aid companies and equipment suppliers: William Demant Holdings owns 3 hearing aid companies (Oticon, Bernafon, Phonic Ear) Equipment suppliers Interacoustics,and Grason Stadler. GN Resound Group owns hearing aid manufacturers Beltone, Resound and Interton and equipment supplier Otometrics.

Forgot William Demant also owns Maico Diagnostics and Tremetrics, Otometrics has purchased several companies (Danplex, ICS Medical and a couple of German companies) which they have blended into their organization.

Sept 23 2010 Update
William Demant now owns Grason Stadler as of a few months ago, so the last of Clinical Audiometers made in the USA is now only a distribution company as all assembly is in Denmark and the components manufactured in the far East. I heard that Demant/Oticon have purchased Sonic Innovations, so the pool is getting shallower for choice, prices will only go up from here. No wonder the economies of North America are such a state with the selling off of good high tech companies to off shore interests.

[Normandy]

Thought I would update this posting:

William Demant has just recently purchased Gordon Stowe and Associates , assets of Hearusa Sennheiser corporation, and through their Audiometer manufacturer Interacoustics, they have purchased Radio Ear Corp, the American company that is the only supplier of Bone Conductors to the Audiometer industry. :(

Lots of Vertical Integration going on here, soon there will not be any competition on the equipment side, prices are sure to rise.

ARG...Less competition is a bad thing.

[BigO]

Just one of the many reason why i dont think it's a good idea for manufacturers to be buying offices in the field. It limits options for audis and patients. No matter what a professional tells you, NO manufacturer is the best at EVERY aspect of hearing aids. Thats why patients need options to choose from and professionals need options from which to fit.

dr. amy

But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.

[dr.amy]

But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.


MAYBE not best for the consumer?? It's a terrible business model for everyone except the manufacturers.

One of my duties is to advocate for patients, and vertical integration only suits the manufacturers interests. Their interests are protected enough as it is....

dr. amy

[maryalbert]

I agree - more often then naught the latest and greatest have design issues that many times are never resolved till several months after initial launch. I'd stay with a mid-range, popular, tried and true hearing aid

[steveelles]

In the UK it is illegal to advertise a price if a customer cannot actually buy the product at the advertised price. This, sadly in some cases, seems to have made a resurgence recently with websites advertising hugely competitive prices. Worringly, when the customer arrives they are not offered the product, but when investigated, it was perfectly suitable for the hearing loss. New regulatory powers are on their way in the UK, but slowly. Remember, you do not have to buy there and then. You can go away and think about it, so do not be pressured into buying something different and more expensive. As they always say, "Get a second opinion".

[aquaskisiac]

In the UK it is illegal to advertise a price if a customer cannot actually buy the product at the advertised price. This, sadly in some cases, seems to have made a resurgence recently with websites advertising hugely competitive prices. Worringly, when the customer arrives they are not offered the product, but when investigated, it was perfectly suitable for the hearing loss. New regulatory powers are on their way in the UK, but slowly. Remember, you do not have to buy there and then. You can go away and think about it, so do not be pressured into buying something different and more expensive. As they always say, "Get a second opinion".

Seems to be a lot of bait and switch going on. Unless a client goes to several dispensers (which the majority won't), they have no idea what is suitable for them, they are just looking at the price point unfortunately.

[modsevere]

But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.

Well, for your information, the GN group will have a 2011 projected gross income of USD500millions which includes their entire worldwide businesses and investment returns.
Is it big?....no.
Are they profitable? For four years on the row, they were not.
In fact, there is not a single hearing aid manufacturer really financially healthy. If they try to merge together, this is simple in order to survive.

Now, let's compare with an hearing aid dispenser located in the Boston area (I will not name it). This is an independant clinic with Audiology services
Gross income for 2010: USD8millions
Net Profit: $435,000

Conclusion, who is producing the most cashflow? The distributor.

[Um bongo]

Well, for your information, the GN group will have a 2011 projected gross income of USD500millions which includes their entire worldwide businesses and investment returns.
Is it big?....no.
Are they profitable? For four years on the row, they were not.
In fact, there is not a single hearing aid manufacturer really financially healthy. If they try to merge together, this is simple in order to survive.

Now, let's compare with an hearing aid dispenser located in the Boston area (I will not name it). This is an independant clinic with Audiology services
Gross income for 2010: USD8millions
Net Profit: $435,000

Conclusion, who is producing the most cashflow? The distributor.

I'm sorry, that's utter nonsense. And you used Resound as your example as they have been on their knees for a while.

Look at Oticon for example:

UPDATE 2-William Demant profits rise, sees stronger 2011


COPENHAGEN, March 9 (Reuters) - Danish hearing aid maker William Demant (WDH.CO) posted a rise in 2010 profit in line with forecasts, driven by higher revenues, and said on Wednesday it expected "considerable" growth in 2011 sales and earnings.

The company said its new high-end product, the Oticon Agil, has become the world's best-selling hearing aid in its category and helped boost its average prices by more than 5 percent.

Earnings before interest and tax (EBIT) rose 24 percent to 1.43 billion Danish crowns ($266 million), compared with analysts' average forecast of 1.42 billion in a Reuters poll. [ID:nLDE7231LP]

"Improvement of profitability during 2010 was driven by strong sales figures and improved product mix," William Demant Holding A/S said in a statement. "In 2011, the Group foresees considerable growth in revenues and earnings."

Excluding the acquisition of U.S. firm Otix Global and associated one-off costs, William Demant said it expected a continuous rise in profit margin from 2010 and a "handsome double-digit rate of growth in operating profits (EBIT)".

William Demant shares initially rose more than 2 percent, but erased gains and fell 2.2 percent by 0904 GMT on a modestly firming Copenhagen bourse .OMXC20.

Analysts said the absence of a firm commitment to buy back shares this year -- the company said only that it might -- was a disappointment and had knocked the share price.

"I had a clear expectation that they would announce a share buyback of 800-900 million crowns because they have a strong cash flow and debt that would allow them to return money to shareholders," said Sydbank analyst Morten Imsgard.

Revenues grew 21 percent in 2010 to 6.89 billion crowns, above an average estimate of 6.78 billion in the Reuters poll.

"The Group generated growth rates that substantially exceed market growth rates and captured market shares in all major geographical markets," William Demant said.

Chief Executive Niels Jacobsen said that performance meant that William Demant recaptured the position "as the fastest growing player in the hearing aid industry" in 2010.

Its competitors include Swiss hearing aid maker Sonova (SOON.VX), Germany's Siemens (SIEGn.DE) and compatriot GN Store Nord (GN.CO). ($1 = 5.371 Danish crowns) (Additional reporting by Teis Jensen and Jakob Vesterager; Reporting by John Acher; Editing by Dan Lalor and Will Waterman)